Sales and Success and the Fuzzy Friction Point with Ruth Frantz

Jordan:

Hi everyone. This is Jordan, the owner and founder of Greaser Consulting. Today on this episode, I spoke with Ruth Frantz from Esper, the VP of customer success. The two of us worked at Outreach together whenever I was an SDR manager. And then also when I worked on the services team at Outreach and she was the director of support. So today, she’s that full helm customer success, support reports up to her. And we were talking in this episode about sales and success, and some of those different areas that you tend to fight over, like who owns the account? Who gets compensated? What happens when sales overpromises, and consequently, whenever success underdelivers?

Jordan:

So how do you handle some of these arguments, what are some of the conversations that come up. And by the end of the episode, with Ruth’s background and support, we got into this whole conversation of whether or not support is even a function of success. Is it its own department? Should it have its own umbrella? And a really interesting question is what happens whenever a support person is named, their title is a customer support representative, versus something like a technical support engineer. So I hope you enjoy the banter of Ruth and I going back and forth a little bit today. We always like to argue with each other. Even just for fun. So with that, I’m going to let you dive right in. Enjoy. (singing)

Jordan:

Hey crew, this is Jordan, CEO of Greaser Consulting. We’ve got our friend Ruth here from Esper. Ruth, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself?

Ruth:

Hey Jordan. So I’m Ruth. I am VP of customer success at Esper. Been there just about eight months. Was at Outreach, was at Redfin, a couple other places here in Seattle. I am from Seattle, live in Seattle, married, with a two year old adorable daughter, and excited to catch up with you, Greaser.

Jordan:

And what Ruth’s not telling you is for some stupid reason, she’s a Syracuse fan. So we could just leave that off the podcast, right Ruth? Anything-

Ruth:

I mean, no, because I love Syracuse. I’m really sad they did not make it into the tournament this year. But they will always hold a special place in my heart.

Jordan:

Yeah. Well, welcome to the life of a Penn State fan, Ruth. It’s just not the same.

Ruth:

Hey, that’s where my dad went. I totally get it. We are Penn State. I’m with it.

Jordan:

All right. Well, hey, here’s the topic of today. I come from the sales side of the house, Ruth’s always been in CS. Or at least in some regard, she was in charge of support for a while, now VP of customer success today at Esper. And we’re really talking about those transition points in an organization. There’s always positive and negatives when you start to segment things all the way through. And so there’s that sort of SDR-AE relationship that we all know can get a little fuzzy, right?

Jordan:

There’s the AE to CSM relationship. There’s a CSM to ProServ relationship. Who knows what in the world goes on with support in the rest of the organization. So what we’re going to tackle today, because Ruth and I, who knows if we used to fight or not in the past, but we’re going to talk about some of those pinch points between sales and success. So Ruth, just to get things started, what are a couple things that you’ve seen over the years that tend to work really well with those relationships, and then what are some things that just go right off the rails pretty commonly?

Ruth:

I mean, I think it mirrors real life in a lot of ways. One of the things that always worked really well was knowing who’s on the other side of your Slack message. Or knowing who’s on the other side of your Zoom. The more you know somebody’s a human, the more you care about what happens to them. So I think a big thing in any working relationship is you can’t just be Slacking some human you can be rude to, you can be unkind to, but then you go to happy hour with them or you go to lunch with them, and you’re like, “Oh crap. I like this person. I don’t know what I’m doing over here. I should have been nicer.”

Ruth:

So I think that’s something that always works well. I think you’ll see it in a lot of organizations. There’s always sales and CS bonding time. There’s always trying to get people to get to know each other. And it’s for a good reason. It’s not just to go drinking or to have a free meal on the company, but it’s so that things work better together. I’m sure you’ve experienced some of that, as soon as you and I became friends, it was a lot easier to work together. So I think that’s a big piece of it.

Jordan:

Bold statement, Ruth, to say we’re friends.

Ruth:

I know, I know.

Jordan:

Bold statement.

Ruth:

As soon as it came out of my mouth, I realize what I’ve done.

Jordan:

You vomited a little bit. Is that what happened?

Ruth:

Verbally, yes. On the opposite side of things, things that don’t work well. I mean, any time you’ve got fuzzy relationships, shall we say, as you put it, that’s an issue. As soon as people don’t know what they should be doing, I think that, especially in a growing organization, I mean both Outreach and Esper, you and I both went through this. There’s a lot of growth. There’s a lot of, “Hey, let’s just hire this person and hope for the best,” and “Here’s what they should be doing, but we’ll see.” That always creates issues across the board, regardless of whether it’s AE, the SDR, CS or ProServ. So not being super clear on what you want them to be doing never works well.

Jordan:

So what are two or three… Ruth, you told me I wasn’t allowed to use this word, but I’m going to use it anyway, because it’s a reality. What are two or three fights that sales and success get into all the time?

Ruth:

So it’s hard for me not to talk about what’s going on directly at Esper today, so I’ll pull a little bit from my Outreach experience.

Jordan:

And don’t indict yourself, Ruth.

Ruth:

Yeah, I know, I’m working on it. I mean, I think there’s one aspect of always, the renewal or expansion conversation. So if you’ve got AEs that are comped on any expansion or any renewal, they want to have a say in what’s going on on the CSM side. And generally, the CSM is the one that owns those things. So there’s always the AE, the nosy AE, emailing somebody at the end of the month or emailing somebody at the end of the quarter and saying, “Hey, is there growth here? Is there anything we can squeeze out before we finish out?” And the CSM owns that relationship and it’s constantly like, “Hey Susie, what are you doing? We already talked about this on the CSM side. I don’t know why you’re making it seem like the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand’s doing.”

Ruth:

So I think that’s always a place where there’s some contention between, let’s say sales and CS. I think to your point, nobody knows what support does. So there’s always some rubs there. The CSM wants to use support endlessly. And so there’s always the back and forth of, “Hey support, why didn’t you answer this?” And the support team’s going, “Hey CS, why don’t you give me more information?” So there’s just little squabbles like that, where again, I think if you know somebody personally, it’s way, way, way easier to figure out.

Jordan:

You’re talking about the AE that’s diving in with the CSM. How do you handle that scenario whenever, let’s say the AE’s quota’s at risk. I mean, we’ve worked in some pretty, I mean, I’ll put it politely, high pressure situations, right? Teams that are growing just faster they can handle. But at the same time, as soon as someone doesn’t produce, they’re out. So how do you coach the CSM through those scenarios with the AE, whenever… You don’t know, I’m coming from the sales side, that VP of sales might be riding the team right now saying like, “Listen, you need to squeeze every last piece, because you might not work here next month if you don’t.”

Ruth:

You know what’s funny? And you may or might not agree with this, but I think 90% of the time, sales wins. There’s not going to be a case where the salesperson gets slapped on the wrist for any of that. So they’re always going to ask for forgiveness instead of permission. In every single case I’ve been a part of. And what’s interesting to me too is you get to a certain point, and CS is actually responsible for more revenue than the sales team, and yet they still don’t carry more weight. There’s something about sales teams that they get the benefit of the doubt, they get the ability to kind of do what they need to do to make those deals. And I think it is because it’s a little bit more high pressure than a CS role. CS doesn’t have the same type of quotas that sales does. And so sales is constantly kind of be on the winning end of that stuff.

Jordan:

So I’ve long heard, as you know, I was a trainer for a while. And every once in a while, I would have to train a CS team. And usually, it was on a piece of software that like, “Does this really align or not?” The AE expanded, and so like, “Here we go.” And I can’t tell you the number of times that I walked into a room with CSMs and they would more or less say this exact phrase over and over and over again. “Great. Another sales tool that’s being pushed over on the CSM world. This wasn’t designed for us. It’s not made for us.” So Ruth, you’ve been around a while in some of these success orgs. Do you feel, even that little scenario with the tools, does success usually feel like they’re second fiddle? They just get the leftovers of what sales leaves behind?

Ruth:

I wouldn’t necessarily call it leftovers, but yeah. I mean, I think… And what’s really interesting too is how companies align themselves. So success at Outreach was always kind of its separate thing. Yes, at some points it reported up through the CRO or what have you. But I think it behooves an organization to let CS do its own thing. You have to have alignment obviously with the sales team, but it can be really difficult when CS and sales are sitting under the same leader or directly next to each other, because again, it’s always going to lead towards sales. And I don’t mean that as a bad thing. You know me, I love our sales teams. They are the ones that got our companies to where they’re at today. It’s just the nature of the beast. There just will always be some love obsession or love affair with sales. And that’s kind of how it is.

Jordan:

So do you feel, say 90% of the time sales wins. Do you feel like that’s just an inevitable conclusion, success just needs to accept it, deal with it, and move on? Or do you think success teams in general need to sort of fight for a little more room at the table?

Ruth:

I mean, I think there’s a little bit of both. So I obviously don’t think that individual contributors should be fighting with each other. I think that’s going to be not a great thing. But I think there’s… For me, there’s some table stakes that CS has to be able to have. At Esper, we’ve done a really great job of this, where we get a say in contracts. There are some contracts that don’t help our team. And so we get a say in those, and we get a say, “Hey, we can’t be agreeing to this.” I think Outreach was somewhat similar, but it took a little bit longer.

Ruth:

And that’s one thing that I think CS teams should always be fighting for. To make sure the contract is not putting them in a place where they can’t serve the customer in the right way. Because it doesn’t help anybody. It doesn’t help grow the company, it doesn’t help expansion, it really doesn’t help anything. It gets everything off on a bad foot. So I think there’s some places where you really have to fight for it, but I think part of it is CS is, it just doesn’t want to. It’s not worth it.

Jordan:

Well just in general, let’s talk stereotypically. A little more aggressive, a little more fight for what you want, right? CSMs, just by their nature, are a lot more relational, and just think a lot more long-term, a lot more about, how can when we handle this relationship? In a fruitful way as time goes on. So do you think that’s even just part of the CS disposition? Since I’m a relationship builder, I’m going to let you “win” just because the relationship’s more valuable to me than just winning this one spot off argument.

Ruth:

So what’s funny that you say that is I almost said that CS are more relationship-based. We’ll say relational. But what’s funny is if you talk to a salesperson, that’s what they think too. They think they’re a relationship seller. So you can’t really… So when you’re thinking about stereotypes, I don’t think salespeople would agree with you that they’re not relationship based. Especially in some, there’s certainly some areas where they stick along with the customer for a long time. But yeah, I think CSMs by nature are trying to make a relationship work a little bit more and understand the long-term impacts, because that’s their job. I think salespeople are a little bit more, “Okay, let’s get this done, get this signed, and move on to the next.” But I think they would still consider themselves very relational and relationship sellers.

Jordan:

Yeah, they might consider themselves that. Right. But it’s not their fundamental premise in life, right?

Ruth:

Sure.

Jordan:

You can at least seed me that one, Ruth.

Ruth:

I’m fine.

Jordan:

Okay. So the next sort of layer here, because you touched on support, okay? Support in general. Is support its own thing, or is that just like a finger of success?

Ruth:

Oh, it’s so interesting. So part of me thinks it depends on the product. Part of me thinks it will always just be its own little ecosystem that kind of can report anywhere. Because I don’t know if you remember, but support at Outreach for a while reported into engineering.

Jordan:

Yeah, I do. Because everybody’s title went from customer support to technical support engineer. Now all these support folks, you want to talk about an overnight change in agency as an individual, the moment these support folks went from customer success or customer whatever to technical support engineer in their name, everybody was puffing their chest out a little bit when they’re walking into work that day. And a little more like, “I don’t got to listen to you because I got engineer in the title.”

Ruth:

I mean, it’s important for a couple reasons. Hiring. You want to make sure you’re getting strong people. For honestly, the way you pay people is different when you’re customer support versus engineer, whether it’s hourly or salary or what have you. And different businesses do it differently. At Esper today, we’ve got a super complex product, not hardware and software. So we actually have solutions engineers that are true engineers that work with our customers. We also have kind of frontline support. We’ve got CSMs. We’ve got implementation. Sort of figuring out how to rejigger what that looks like, but I don’t know. Support, it depends on your organization. In some cases I do think support should be an arm of CS. In some cases, I think it should be an arm of engineering. I think you get a lot more done for the customer if you’re part of engineering in some cases.

Jordan:

Tell me though why, and listen, this is going to be a bold statement question, I don’t know. But tell me why anybody would say, “Man, I’d really like to go into support.” And let me tell you why I’m going to ask that question. Is support is the… And Ruth, you’re going to hit me because I’m even going to use this term. But support to me is like purgatory. You’re going to pay for all your sins when you’re in support.

Ruth:

Why would you say that?

Jordan:

Exactly, right? And let me tell you why. Because whenever you’re in that position, most often, the reason why someone reaches out to support is because they’re mad and they’re upset. Right? So you’re-

Ruth:

Yes. People are not saying, “Hey, thanks. We love you.”

Jordan:

Yeah, like, “Hey, whatever company, I’m just reaching out to tell you your product’s awesome. There’s no issues.” Everyone’s like, “That button doesn’t work.” Or, “You’re blowing up my day because this is…” So you’re never working with happy people, and very few people thank you when you’re done. And then even your internal team, I’m going to speak from experience. We’re going to say some than like, “Oh, don’t send that to support.” They’re going to tell you the functional reason why you need to click that button, but they’re going to miss the workflow concept. And so if you go to support-

Ruth:

I feel like you said those words six years ago exactly to a team.

Jordan:

That’s what I’m saying. So you’re going to miss the whole reason why you need to click that button, which you probably shouldn’t click the button to begin with because your workflow dictates it, right? And so my whole reason for soapboxing for a second here is we know that support is a necessary function, but you can’t win with anybody. So why are people saying, “Yeah, let’s sign up. Put me in support.” Or am I fundamentally missing something?

Ruth:

Well, I think there’s two things. I think number one, it’s a great way to get in an organization. So if you are new in your career and you’re like, “Man, I really want to work at a startup.” You probably don’t have a lot of career experience that puts you anywhere other than support because you’re nice to humans. So that’s number one. You can get in anywhere working in support. Yes, it can be thankless, but it’s not like we’re working Comcast support. In general.

Jordan:

Because that is thankless.

Ruth:

Yes, that is thankless. People are always yelling at their Comcast person. So there’s a woman that it took me four years to hire over to Outreach from Redfin. She’s near and dear to my heart. One of the reasons she loves support is because of the feeling of accomplishments. You can go through tickets and you can literally check boxes off your list. To be fair, the list never ends because as soon as you email that customer, they’re emailing you back. But the feeling of being… And in your day saying, “I finished 200 tickets,” or, “I accomplished this many things,” it’s very task oriented, is amazing. You feel like you have done so much. So there is that aspect of things, you get to check these boxes. I also think for somebody, we just hired a guy, you know him. He just came over and is a principal technical support at Esper.

Ruth:

He’d worked at Outreach for a long time. He loves to learn. He likes to learn all this stuff. And talking to customers at this level, you learn about every single use case. You’re not managing a book of customers, you’re not responsible fully for these customers, but you still get to help them. And you still get to learn about it. You still get to find out how people are using it differently. And you get to be kind of the point person. Think about how many times a CSM or an AE or an SDR couldn’t answer a question and we said, “Hey, go find this person in support. They know the answer.” I mean, it’s great.

Jordan:

Well, that seems like the difference between your entry level. And you sort of climb through the ranks because there are certainly, and even throughout my career, there are certain number of support people that they sort of get that moxie behind them of like they know the answer. I’m just going to be upfront with you, and this is where you can fight with me here. You stop thinking about them as like, “Oh they’re in support.” You start saying like, “Oh this is the guy or girl who has all the answers.” Right?

Ruth:

Yes.

Jordan:

But then those people, they’re having a much different conversation. They’re pulled in on the strategic conversations. Clients actually get to know them because they go, “Oh I got that guy,” or, “that girl now.” And they’re in a whole different layer. So I’ll give you that. When you get to that place, that’s a fun place to be. Which to your point, I think has a lot of benefits. I’m not compensated on the look of business, I’m getting to solve the problems, and I’m not the long-term relationship holder so you go deal with them. Right?

Ruth:

Exactly.

Jordan:

So I can see that. So my question to you, Ruth, when you think about support in general, we started sales and success in this fuzzy friction point. If there’s anything you could say on behalf of support, in support of support, huh, there’s your tongue twister of the day. What’s something we need to know when you interact with support, why support matters, and even how it fits into success as a whole?

Ruth:

Oh, that’s a great question. Because inherently, I just know it matters. But it matters because number one, you can’t get anything done without them, if you think about it. If you have an issue and you went to engineering, you wouldn’t hear back from weeks. They have other priorities. So support matters to get stuff done. Whether you’re internal or external. So that’s a huge piece of it. Generally, these people really like helping people. You don’t get into support because you hate other humans. You have to be real. You get into support because you like helping and you enjoy-

Jordan:

Ruth, then how’d you get over there?

Ruth:

I know right? If only you knew that I did not have a black heart. No, I mean, I think support is, they’re some of the smartest, kindest humans, to your point, you wouldn’t get into it otherwise. I mean, you have to really enjoy it. I think back to my team that I built at Outreach, they all got promoted and went on to do other things. I’ve hired a couple over Esper. I just love them. I think back to those times we built such a great fun team because work was hard. Answering these questions all day long is hard. It’s not always super fun, but you build this camaraderie.

Ruth:

And not at Outreach, but at other places, you actually get to shut your laptop when you go home. That’s another piece of the role. You’re not worrying about if this customer’s going to renew or if they’re going to expand or if your CEO hates you. You get to shut your laptop and go home. Especially in the early stages. As you get more strategic and as you get asked more questions, you could be on call or whatnot, but that’s another piece of it. You get to shut your laptop. So I don’t know, they’re just great people, Jordan. I love them. I think back to them and I just, I love all the early support people at Outreach.

Jordan:

So you touched on this earlier though, about… I’m thinking about the support people because they get beat on more than anybody else, right? But we originally started this conversation with friction points between sales and CS, CS and support, whatever else. And one of the things you talked about was, got and get a drink with folks, do a happy hour, go golfing to get… Whatever. However, as you know, over the last two years, the big topic that everyone talks about is we’re primarily a remote workforce now. In some cases, people are afraid to see somebody else.

Jordan:

So how do you still facilitate a situation where almost everybody’s remote, but you still need to see the person on the other side of the Slack as a person? And I’ve seen people try to do Zoom happy hours. And it’s just kind of like, “Hey. Ah, we got pizza last night. Okay.” If that’s your big driver of we need to see each other as humans first and that’s going to help the friction points, how do we do that today, Ruth?

Ruth:

So number one, we did a paint and sip during the pandemic and it was super fun. But it was awkward, because you’re putting your painting up in front of your Zoom and you’re like, “Hey, look at what I did.” It’s weird. But that being said, you know what I found myself doing Jordan more, and I feel like you can relate to this, is I pick up the phone. I’ll just call people and chat with them. When I first started at Outreach, I hated it. I hated when one of my founders would call me on a Sunday night at 6:00 PM and say, “How you doing?” But it’s a great way to build a relationship. So after work, 4:30, 5:00, I’ll call people.

Ruth:

I’d say, “How was your day? Let’s chat. Oh yeah, let’s chat about that meeting that we had. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But man, how’s your kids? What are you doing?” You’re connecting in a different way which seems so bizarre since you’re talking on the phone, but it matters. It’s weird. It seems like the circle has come full loop or whatever the saying is. It’s come full circle, I guess you’d say. Because the phone was the first way of communication in some aspects. And then we went to Zoom and Slack and all these messaging apps. And now we’re back to the phone.

Jordan:

That’s a whole can of worms. I think as you know, I went back to the flip phone, which that’s a whole other topic on itself. But now, Ruth, I literally, I can’t text you back more than two words.

Ruth:

I know, I noticed this morning.

Jordan:

Yeah, I’m just calling you. The funny thing is, I actually had a guy. He was late for something, I said, “Okay.” He gave me an update. I said, “Great.” Because that’s all I could say. Well later, he was like, “Man, I thought you were so PO’ed at me that you’re just being short with me and you’re mad.” I’m like, “No, I literally can’t text more than two words, it would take me an hour.”

Ruth:

I had a thought of like, “How am I going to get ahold of Jordan if I’m going to be late this morning?” I was like, “I could email him. I could LinkedIn message him. I could try text. I don’t know if it’s going to work.”

Jordan:

Well, my point is though, I’ve been, as a result, I’ll get a text and I’ll just pick up the phone and call somebody. And half the people are going to shutter when they hear this, but I’ll end up in a 25 minute conversation with a person about life and Twinkies and who knows whatever in between.

Ruth:

Well, that is you, Jordan. That is you in a nutshell. I don’t know that everyone could do that.

Jordan:

But my point is, I’ve been… Ironically, when people said when you go to this flip phone, like, “Oh, you’re going to segment yourself from society?” I have had better conversations and I’ve followed up with more people, this is sort of to your point, and rekindled some relationships because I can’t hide behind a text.

Ruth:

Exactly. I mean, you’re not part of Facebook or Instagram or that society, but yeah, that’s exactly it. You’re able to talk. I loved when I… So between Outreach and Esper, I was at a little company called BoostUp. And I was working from home. And I felt super isolated, and I would call my coworkers after work. Everyday. I only met them once, if at all. I would call them and we’d chat for an hour. About work, about life. It was great. And I made great friends because of it. And it matters. Today, I go into the office, I absolutely love every second of it. We do a ton of happy hours. We do COVID testing, all sorts of stuff. But-

Jordan:

That’s the first time I’ve ever heard COVID testing and happy hour in a sentence right next to each other. Like, “Let’s all get our test and drink some beers.” And it’s not like-

Ruth:

Here’s the thing, we get tested every other day at work. Before we enter the building, we have to test ourselves. Everyone in the building is vaccinated. We’ve still had outbreaks, but very small, nobody’s gotten super sick. But I still call people. My old boss is in Palm Springs. I call him after meetings sometimes. He’s up here once a month and I feel like I know him really well because we’re on the phone. We’re not texting, we’re not just staring at each other via video screen. And it’s really enjoyable. Being on the phone is more enjoyable for me now than it has been in the last three or four years.

Jordan:

Well, I hate to tell you Ruth, but we’re getting real close to time here. I think we’ve covered what we covered. Flip phones, pandemic.

Ruth:

Happy hours.

Jordan:

The relationship issues, happy hours, COVID testing. And just about anything else in between the purgatory of support, which you won’t let me tell you that.

Ruth:

No.

Jordan:

Look, it just cuts you even when I say it.

Ruth:

I know, it does.

Jordan:

As we round out here, so since support is near and dear to your heart, what’s something everybody needs to know about support? When we walk out of this thing, we know we need to build relationships with people, calling people on the phone is important. There’s going to be friction points in an organization. Support folks care about people. We talked about success, sort of lobbying a little bit for some table stakes and seat at the table. So if there’s anything that the world needs to know about support or any table stakes for support, what is that? We’ll use that as our final takeaway. And then we’ll rag on Syracuse and we’ll hang up.

Ruth:

Table stakes for support. Knowing they’re human. They’re going to get stuff wrong too, but at the end of the day, they’re human. They want to do the job well.

Jordan:

Ruth, we all know that support’s going to get something wrong.

Ruth:

Jordan, no, I didn’t mean it like that. No, they’re human. Support people are human, and a lot of them absolutely love their jobs. Yes, everyone listening to this podcast should go email their best or greatest vendor and say, “Hey, you guys do great job.” Rather than just complaining about a button being broken. But they’re human at the end of the day, and they really like helping people. I think that’s what you need to know about support. Unless I’m really frustrated, I try to be as kind as possible when I’m emailing any sort of support at any sort of company. I’ll be honest with you, it’s not always perfect. Some days I’m real angry, but I’m always kind at the end. I’m always like, “Oh, thank you so much for your help.” But they’re just trying to do their job just like anyone emailing them is in most cases. And they’re usually some of the smartest humans at the company.

Jordan:

Well, that’s what… Kind of the note you touched on earlier though, there are some folks that they come out of that support infrastructure, and I mean, they’re just… They’re like savants. I mean, it takes a special person to be very technical. Also, have the ability to speak very well others. Learn a ton, not be slow to get angry, but also make really complicated things just seem easy. And I mean, when you meet those people, I mean, they’re impressive. So I got to… And Ruth, we know a handful of folks that fit all those criteria, but hey, thank you. I know when I reached out to you and I said, “Hey, you want to do a podcast?” I think your response was something like, “No, I don’t want to do a podcast, but I’ll hang out with you.” So Ruth, I do appreciate, I think you’re on your staycation, taking some time from your staycation to stop and chat with me today.

Ruth:

Always, Jordan. As long as you tell me how much you love Syracuse, this will all be worth it.

Jordan:

All right. I think the podcast is over. I think we’re done for today. All right. Hey, it was great catching up with you and I’ll see you later, all right?

Ruth:

All right. Bye Jordan.

Speaker 3:

Hotdog, that was a great episode. Thanks for listening. If you want to learn more about Greaser Consulting or any information you heard on today’s episode, visit us online at www.greaserconsulting.com. Be sure to click the follow button and the bell icon. Be notified on the latest here at RevOps Therapy. Thanks and see you real soon.