Choosing the Right Company with Mark Williams

Jordan  00:00

Hi everyone, this is Jordan, the owner and CEO of Greaser Consulting. On this episode, we had Mark Williams, who is an AE at Gorilla Logic. Fun fact was, he was like, I think the first, or like one of the first, people on the SDR team at Outreach back in the day. And he, you would have thought was in the right place, right time doing the right thing. And we’re gonna dive into his story here, where he took five years after his Outreach experience, only stayed nine months and just left tech altogether, and needed to experience some different things in life. And then he comes back from that whole experience, sort of wiser, smarter, but winds up at the wrong company. Or at least he would say, the wrong company, but it still had some good benefits. But at the end, he’s now in a place that he loves; it’s a ton of fun. So we’re gonna just gonna kind of enjoy this conversation where we talk about, you know, one, one individual’s journey sort of navigating through work and life and marriage and having kids and, like, “Where does work fit in this? Where does family time fit in this?” Anytime I talk with Mark, it’s, it’s always a mixture of a little bit of ridiculousness, but, but quite a little bit of thoughtfulness in there as well. So I know you’ll enjoy listening to this episode. And with that, we’re going to kick over to the podcast now. Enjoy.

Intro Jingle

Say you want some clarity in sales and marketing and SEP? Well, we have just the remedy: our podcast, RevOps Therapy. Yeah.

Jordan  01:45

Hi, everyone. This is Jordan. We’ve got Mark with us today. Mark, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself?

Mark  01:50

What’s up, everyone? My name is Mark Williams. I am 30 years old. I live in a small ski town called Mammoth Lakes. I’m an account executive at Gorilla Logic. 

Jordan  02:04

You have, and what? You have two kids that are fairly new to this world. Is that right?

Mark  02:10

Yep, I have a two-and-a-half-year-old named Sierra, and I have a four-month-old named Summer, and they both actually have the same middle name. My wife and I were too lazy to come up with a new middle name for our second. We thought we thought we nailed it the first time; why reinvent the wheel?

Jordan  02:34

Out of curiosity, what is the middle name?

Mark  02:36

Sierra and summer Joy. It simplifies everything right? So simplifies… one less thing to think about when you’re, when you’re, you know, signing up for preschool, coming up with a birth certificate, entering your taxes, it’s great.

Jordan  02:56

And the initials are literally exactly the same.

Mark  03:00

SJW.

Jordan  03:01

There we go. The… hey, here’s a fun fact. Since Mark, you’re laying down fun facts today. So Mark was actually a team lead at Outreach when there’s like, what 10 people in the company; it was real small. And the thing about this is Mark’s sort of claim to fame… maybe you don’t want this claim to fame. But when I started at Outreach, our first sequence that actually worked well, like Outreach’s first sequence that actually got meetings on a consistent basis was called “I’m a Cowboy” written and authored by our boy Mark Williams.

Mark  03:47

Yeah, do you know the, the background of “I’m a Cowboy”?

Jordan  03:51

I have no idea. Educate me here.

Mark  03:54

It’s from the Bon Jovi song. Which was yeah, “I’m a cowboy. On a steel horse I ride…”.

Jordan  04:05

So what, like what was… you’re like listening to Bon Jovi, thinking about how to book meetings? And that’s how that sequence came to?

Mark  04:12

You know, I have no idea. Just seemed… it just seemed pretty rad. You know, like, why not? Like you’re asking the wrong question. The question is not “why?”, it’s “why not?”.

Jordan  04:24

Honestly, it’s just, it’s just funny to think back about that, though. Like, I mean, think about this. I have a whole business now where we write content for folks and all kinds of things. There’s companies everywhere, trying to solve sequence matrices and trying to figure all this stuff out. And the first sequence that was ever worth a grain of salt was called “I’m a Cowboy”. So there’s the, there’s the fun fact of the day.

Mark  04:47

I don’t know if that’s, if that’s factual that this is the first sequence that was worth a grain of salt. I mean, people were making sequences and tout and all that kind of stuff, but I mean term sequence from Outreach. I would, I would say, yeah, you know, the funny thing about that sequence is, it’s pretty similar to, to all the sequences that are written today; it was a manual email, followed by one or two bump emails with phone calls, social touches, maybe another manual email followed by a couple bumps. There was nothing special about the sequence. It was like, it was the sequence that so many people use today. And I still use, like, some kind of common… yeah, combination of that sequence today of like, personalization, you know, which is the most vague topic in sales development of all time.

Jordan  05:37

And that’s what like, what yeah, for example, everyone, everyone gets excited about the Agoge sequence. That’s, “I’m a Cowboy” at the end of the day, right? Like it’s the same; it’s the same thing recycled with a little bit of different packaging, and I’m trying to beat on it. I’m simply saying, like, all the way back at the beginning, the first structure that really worked, and now that’s what like… What I’m trying to say to you is you’re like a C-list celebrity, Mr. Williams.

Mark  06:05

Yeah, well, if you think about it, too, like Sam Nelson has way cooler hair than me, is way more popular on LinkedIn, has way better things to say, is probably way better at sales and sales development. So if anybody should be getting credited, Sam, not me.

Jordan  06:20

Fantastic. I’m not. I’m not. I’m a Sam fan here. I’m not beating on Sam. I’m just, I’m saying we… we’re, we’re glad today to have a C-list celebrity with us. We’re gonna, we’re gonna talk about… I’m sorry, I can’t help myself. I know you came to the State College office and like, three days later, what I had you, like, rappelling down in a cave? And you were like “what in the world? What in the world goes on in Pennsylvania?”

Mark  06:49

I still don’t know the answer to that question.

Jordan  06:55

Anyway, anyway, we’re going to talk about just this concept of choosing the right company and kind of your process to go through. I think you have an interesting story, because in a lot of ways, you know, we start with this long segue of you being the first team lead at Outreach. And ironically, you weren’t there that long. Like in the grand scheme of things it was, it’s what sort of set you up for some things in life, but you weren’t there that long, then you sort of went off the, off the map for a while, like we just didn’t hear from you. I don’t think you were in tech. And then you come back; you actually consulted with, with our company here for a little bit. And now before we even started recording, you were talking about how you finally found the company that like, like, this is the most fun you’ve ever had. So a lot of folks would say Outreach was the right company early on. So just, you know, tell us first just a little bit. I know I gave a real rough sketch, but a little bit about your journey. And then we’ll start poking some questions, poking some holes in it, and have some fun.

Mark  07:59

Yeah, that was a great segue. So yeah, out of college I got involved very on with, very early on with an HR analytic software company. And my goal was to work for a startup. And it just so happened to be that working for a startup for someone with a very basic economics degree was not going to be in finance unless I was the CFO. So it was… let’s get into sales, apparently. And so yeah, I started as an SDR there. And I was terrible. I was thrown into an approach that was the… I forget the guy’s name, who, who came up with it, but it was basically “load as many contacts as you can into Salesforce and ask somebody the same question, which is, who are you going to refer me to in the company?”, and we just sent mass amounts of emails out using this approach, and I was terrible, spraying and praying. I was so bad at it. And then we had, we had a sales trainer: John Barrows came and did a sales training for us. And I remember he basically said, “You need to give a shit about the people that you’re selling to. And you need to like really focus on who you’re selling to and, and like dial in.” And I took that approach, and it really worked. And I ended up doing pretty well at this HR analytics company. I wasn’t super stoked on the company culture and the SDR team, the SDR team actually, like dissolved maybe five months after I left, but I had started thinking of ways to be more successful in the role, and I, and we had just gotten Yesware at the time, and I remember thinking, man, there’s got to be something better than Yesware. I was like this, you know, this whole email automation thing is good, but there’s like this new approach that I’m using that’s working, which is I’m getting really dialed in with these prospects. But once I send them this initial email, like, they get lost. Like I can’t use Salesforce or Yesware, to really, now the term would be personalization at scale or some kind of scalization of this process. And it was around that time when I got an email, a sales email from an account executive out at Outreach. And I remember seeing the email and knowing that it was an automated email, but it was a bump to a previous email that was, I think, an also, an automated email. But I was like, “Wow, this, this looked way more personalized than something that you could do at Yesware.” And so I, I thought to myself, like, “Where does this coming from?” And so I looked into, I started looking into it… ended up being an account executive from Outreach. And I reached out to what was the VP of Sales at Outreach, Mark, Mark Kosoglow, still VP of sales at Outreach, and I was like, “Yo, Mark, I’m looking for a new sales job. Looks like what you’re building at Outreach is pretty cool. Like, how can I get involved?” And so Mark hired me. And I just took this approach that I had learned, and started applying it to Outreach sequences, which is how “I’m a Cowboy” was born. And, and Mark, Mark was like, “wow, that’s a pretty good approach. Like you’re booking a lot of meetings with, with this approach. You have no leadership experience in life, you have no, no, I’m just kidding. You have no sales leadership experience, like, do you want to lead this team? Do you want to manage a team?” And for me, that meant moving to Pennsylvania. And so I was living in California at the time; I’m still living in California.

Jordan  11:46

So is there a problem with Pennsylvania, Mark? I mean, what like, what are you trying to say?

Mark  11:51

I think just you know, the there was, maybe the landscape wasn’t exactly what I was looking for.

Jordan  11:59

That was meant to cut. I see what’s going on.

Mark  12:03

So so so I got… Yeah, I got offered that opportunity to manage the team and move out to Pennsylvania. My wife, my soon-to-be wife; we were just, we were engaged, and we came out and had a great experience in Pennsylvania, loved the people of Pennsylvania, but didn’t really want to move out there. And so took a took a quick team lead role. But I, I had also had this side, side dream that nobody really knew about. And this was the side dream of building an outdoor company. And I’ve always been super into the outdoors and mountain biking, and hiking, and snowboarding and all this kind of stuff. So I really wanted to build this outdoor brand. And I hadn’t really vocalized that to anyone but it kept like kind of coming into my mind. It’s not that I was like really unhappy in the SDR role; I just had this, this idea that I had to check out. And so I, I was at Outreach for about nine months, and I was in this team lead role. And I was like, “Hey, I’m out. I’m gonna leave. And for…”

Jordan  13:09

Ooh… nine months, buddy, does that… I don’t think you’ve invested then did you?

Mark  13:13

No.

Jordan  13:14

Oh no. Ah, come on, hang on for three more months, buddy.

Mark  13:21

Young and dumb.

Jordan  13:24

You said it not me. Anyway, keep going.

Mark  13:28

Yeah, so I took about the next five years or so away from technology and looked into starting my own business. Then I got married. And then I moved; I did van life for a while and moved to the mountains. And basically was just a ski bum for, like, three years. So worked odd jobs, started my own business shoveling snow, worked in… yeah, worked at restaurants, kind of just did whatever it took to ski as much as possible and rock climb, and all that kind of stuff. And it was awesome. I loved it. Although none of the jobs I had were really that fun. They were almost like more stressful than being in tech sales. Because the people thought these jobs were so serious, even though we were like serving food to people. So my wife and I, we were like at the point where we want to have kids, we want to, we want to own a home. And these jobs, we’re not going to provide the income to do any of those things. So I thought “I guess, I guess maybe I’ll be an SDR again and get into sales.” So I got a job at… I did not search for that long for this job. And I had been out of the SDR world for a while. I had connections, but I had been in, out of the, out of the role for like three or four years and got a job at this company that did survey software, and not very good survey software, like the kind of surveys that people don’t want to take… that kind of survey software. And this is, this just kind of goes along with this theme of, and where it gets into this theme of, of choosing the right company to work for because this truly was not the company that I should have picked. And where things got good and bad, I should say, because this is part of the journey. And it’s, it’s, I’m, I’m super grateful for the, for the time I had at this company. But I was there for three years; I was one of the top SDRs. About a year and a half into the role, I realized very quickly that my tenure there, I was not going to be promoted to any type of role that I wanted to be promoted in. We were downsizing the AE team; we weren’t really closing much business. There, there was not really any room for improvement. But I was doing well. And I thought “let’s just just just hang on and see what happens.” And this I had, I had my first kid during this time, about a year and a half in. And so about that time when I had my first kid, I kind of thought “I’ve never really tried this. But I wonder what would happen if I just kind of coasted… if I just kind of tried less, and just kind of you know, see what happens. And so my workload decreased greatly; I ended up… people may not be super happy if they ever listen to this episode. But I was probably working like I don’t know, 5 to 10 hours a week. And spending a ton of time with my kids, or my kid, and doing a lot of mountain biking and hiking and still, still doing fine numbers-wise, like I wasn’t the worst, and I wasn’t the best. But I’ve always gotten into a role thinking “I’m going to be the best SDR on this team.” That’s always like just been “How can I be the best SDR on this team?” But it was kind of fun, just like not being the best. And just like, just chilling and spending a ton of time with my, my family and, and friends. And yeah, except turns out that I wasn’t that content. Because I ended up getting a, getting a side hustle gig, starting my own podcast during that time, consulting to fill the other hours of the day where I was kind of bored. And I wanted to try something new. And eventually, they, they let me go. They can’t… they, they deleted my role from the team. So I was not fired on performance. I was fired, apparently, because they deleted my role. And yeah, I had the opportunity of never becoming an AE at that company. But moving into an AE position which I always thought was impossible at that time. And now I’m an account executive at Gorilla Logic, and I love it; we sell, we sell services. And it’s super fast-paced; we get to talk to amazing people; we’re solving problems all the time. We have tons of demand for our business. We do, we, we perform great services for people; people are happy, and it’s, it’s super fun.

Jordan  18:18

Do you work more than five hours a week?

Mark  18:21

Yes.

Jordan  18:27

So let’s, let’s, like, unpack a couple of these things here because I, I distinctly… hopping on… remember hopping on a call with you, like, to talk about consulting, and you’re wearing a hat that says “Quit your job.” I thought “Well, this is an individual that wholly uninspired”. But, like, there’s a little bit of a silver lining to this, like you get to spend time with your family; in terms of performance, showed middle the road. I think there’s maybe a few people listening who like “yeah, like you got to be the best version of yourself.” But the reality is, just knowing you all this time, like you’ve been journeying, right, like you’ve been kind of looking for things; you’ve been trying to find that fit in. So like how much was the lack of career path the driver in you deciding “I’m just going to stop trying so hard”? And to be fair in this question, I also have to ask like, and how much was it like your own just level of burnout of life and feeling stuck in where you were? Because you’re thinking the AE, like being an AE, it’s just never available? So like a little bit of this is like company not letting you but also just like your own mental state being that driver for, don’t take this personally, but mediocracy.

Mark  19:52

Yeah, 100% the career path. I was at the company over a year ago. And I was told that there were going to be openings. And so, up to that time, I was trying really hard. And I was by far the best SDR in North America. And so, as I started to see the, the trend of the AE team downsizing, I started losing hope in the idea of becoming an AE. And even then I looked, I started looking at what else is there? Can I go into account management, and I actually tried that avenue as well. And that was… ended up being just like another, you’re never going to really, that’s never really going to come to fruition. And, and I don’t know, they’re…

Jordan  20:46

What keeps you, what keeps you in the company? Like, if you’re like, quite frankly, this is depressing. You know, like, yeah, there’s no where to go. I’m just gonna do nothing for a little while and just kind of see what happens. Like, what makes you go “Yeah, I think I’ll stick around for this.” Verses “I wonder what else is out there”.

Mark  21:08

So they’re… and, everybody’s going to know what I’m talking about. And when I say that, like you’re at a company for over a year, if I go back to the SDR position at another company, I’m already in there another year before I can get to the AE role. So if there’s any chance I can get to an AE, or account management role within this company, if there’s any option for me to do that, I can then potentially move to another company as an AE, or an, or into an account management role. So I thought, “well, I’m weighing my pros and cons here. I quit, and I go get another SDR job, because I’ve still have no AE experience. And I do well there again, and then I become an AE somewhere else”. Or I hang out, work a couple hours a week, and hope that maybe I can become an AE somewhere. Or sorry, hope that I can get into an AE role, or an account management role. And then I can quickly be there 6 to 12 months, and then go, go get a job somewhere else.

Jordan  22:17

So like, basically what I’m hearing is, you would have stayed at that company, had they not let you go, like forever?

Mark  22:26

I can’t answer that. I don’t know.

Jordan  22:33

At a minimum, right? It’s the catalyst. You don’t get the option to only work five more hours a week and hang out with your kid. So all of a sudden, you got to go find something else.

Mark  22:46

I think eventually, yeah, sorry. I think eventually, I wanted to, I would want to make more money, especially having another kid. Like I would have wanted to increase my salary, which wouldn’t have happened in the SDR role, although they paid SDRs really well, above market rate, I would say.

Jordan  23:06

So that was almost a problem. Yeah. You’re, you don’t have a career path. But we’re going to… I don’t know if overpay is the right word, but we’re going to pay you so much that you’re, like, your quote unquote, happy. But as a result, it actually limited performance. So the comp plan actually kind of worked against productivity. Yeah. Ouch. How do you know you get to Gorilla Logic, though? Like what? What gave you that hope right away, or even in the interview process that like you felt like, I can be an AE, and like, this is the right place? I mean, what was the… anytime I’ve talked to you since you’ve landed there, you’re like, “Man, this is fantastic. I love it. I shouldn’t have waited so long.” I mean, what’s the difference maker?

Mark  23:57

Yeah, a couple of couple things. So one, the way I got the job, so the VP of Sales was looking for software services, or software, sorry, survey software. And he had come to… he actually had filled out a demo request. And I had had a meeting with him as an SDR at my old company. And he really liked me. So he was, he was one of… he was like a lead that came in and was was interested in what we were doing. And we had connected on LinkedIn after, and he had started listening to my podcast. And so I had, I had built. I had built some connection there and had proved that I could sell something, apparently. And the second piece of that is, while I was an SDR and I started consulting, I got some view into selling consulting services. And so while I was consulting with Greaser, I had the opportunity to just start selling, to start up-selling services. So I would do an implementation; I would do an Outreach implementation, then I’d be like, “hey, you know, it’s probably really beneficial for you guys to keep me on for another six to 12 months because I’m going to take your program from, you know, x to x. And you’re going to see a tremendous value if you keep me around.” And I ended up signing some contracts like that. And that gave me a little bit of… that gave me, that gave me something to put on my resume, and to also speak to in a, in interviewing for an AE, where I had actually sold some things, right, besides just like set up meetings. But also, also, I don’t know, I don’t know if this was part of your question. But it’s incredible in AE interviews how much people want to know how much you have, how much you can prospect. It seems to be that there is a lot of AEs out there that don’t know anything about prospecting, and who don’t know how to pick up a phone, don’t know how to write a sequence, don’t know how to write an email, and can’t build any of their own pipeline. And so something that gave me really good confidence coming into this role was, if I don’t get any leads, and I have to prospect all the time, like, I’m going to be able to create my own pipeline eventually if, if, if, if I need to.

Jordan  26:18

Right, but you get in the role. So that’s kind of what got you the confidence to actually do the interview, and sort of look for what you want. But once you got to the company, what’s the difference-maker in your mind? Of like, I know I chose the right company, because check check check.

Mark  26:36

Yeah, so one is, we’re actually selling things that are helping people. People want our services. That’s it, that’s a huge piece of looking for a company is to make sure that people actually want what you’re selling. And our people happy, our clients happy; we have an insane amount of demand for our business. Like we… it’s, we’re, we’re trying to fill, like the demand for our business. There’s so much demand, we turn clients away. We, we in a sales process with and, this is different than selling software, this… because we’re selling services, but part of the conversation is do we want to work with you? You want to work with us; do we also want to work with you? Like we like doing business with really good people that are creating really good product. Do our developers want to work on your product? Or is your technology so out of date, and is… are you just like not good people? We just, we have the ability to say “no, we don’t want to work with you”. So that’s completely different.

Jordan  27:40

Wow, that seems like a luxury, right? Like, I understand the, the idea of you know, people want the product, even if it is service-based, but it’s a little bit of a luxury right? To be in a position as a company where you can say, “hey, our service is so advantageous or so desired. And everybody wants to so much that I can just say no. Like, not you, not you, you know, eeny meeny, miny, moe, you’re in, you’re out.” I know, it’s not quite like that. But that, that’s a little bit of a luxury, right?

Mark  28:14

Yeah. And then the other piece of that is I’m managing accounts too. So if I bring on a client that I don’t want to work with, that I’m stuck in, you know, I’m stuck in a contract dealing with these people for multiple months on end and doing one-on-ones with them and having to, you know, listen to them bossing me around, or something like that. So it’s a very mutual, it’s a very mutual relationship. And when I was consulting, that gave me a sense of, there’s people that I really like working with. And there’s people that I don’t want to work with. And, and, like, so much of life is dealing with people, right? No matter what we’re doing, we’re dealing with people. And life is so much better when you have people that you like to work with. There’s so much less stress.

Jordan  29:03

I still, I still remember getting that phone call from you. You’re like, “hey, this project went off the rails. Please don’t ever give me somebody like this again.” Like, can we please not have this happen again? Like, let’s, let’s talk about it. So it sounds like, you know, if I had to summarize it, right and choosing the right company. It’s the people you work with. It’s the people you work for. But it also sounds like you’re given quite a little bit of autonomy to kind of be your own man, so to speak, right? Like you get to make some decisions. You get to scope out some things; you get to, your company gives you the ability to say now. 

Mark  29:49

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think another thing. I think one more thing. One more thing is there’s a lot of companies where you’re working with people that are very immature. There’s, there’s like, a lot of…

Jordan  30:01

You mean people, people that are only working like five hours a day?

Mark  30:05

Yeah, people that, you know, don’t know how to work, right? Like myself? No, actually, that’s a part of it, there’s like, I think there’s a lot of immaturity in management to, to be looking over people’s shoulders all the time and, and looking at metrics that don’t make any sense and making sure you’re on Slack all the time or on Teams or whatever this and that, especially in the sales role, right where the number one thing is that you’re making people happy, and that you’re hitting your quota. And you’re servicing clients well, but also, just like the level of team maturity, like I’ve been a part of a lot of teams where, you know, there’s so much, there’s so much like, gossip, but behind managers backs are behind this and his back and, and I work with people that are really grown up. That’s not their first, like, time. They’re really good people. Like they have good values, which sounds stupid, but it makes, it goes a long way when you, when you work day to day with people that have really good values. And that, and that treat each other with respect.

Jordan  31:08

Oh, what are some of those values?

Mark  31:12

Yeah, I think respect is a big one. Honesty, and doing business, I think transparency is you transparency is, is the biggest buzzword of 2022. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard that on sales calls lately. But yeah, being transparent, being honest, be, being respectful to people. Yeah, those are the three that are coming to my mind. I know there’s a lot, a lot more but…

Jordan  31:42

Okay, so this is the last question I’m going to ask you. For that person that’s kind of sitting in the place that you were sitting in at one point that thought the promotion would never come, or this is a dead-end job, or sort of, you know, working in mediocracy knowingly because they don’t feel like they can get to that next place… You know, having been there, yourself, I mean, what’s a piece of advice or something that you would want to tell to somebody that’s, that’s in that situation today?

Mark  32:14

It’s a hard question. Because there’s tons of nuance of where that person is in their, in life. For me that, like, was I, was I putting out mediocre work in, in my work life? Yes. But I was an incredible dad, like I was, I was doing, and then like, I was having a ton of fun. And so in life, I was, I was loving life. Like, “where do you find value?” is like a big question that I would ask, that I would ask for, for whoever is in this role. Like, is, is your value wrapped up in the work that you do? Is your value at home? Like what’s your, what’s your why? For me, if I enjoyed where I was at? And I found a ton of value there. I think where I went, where I went wrong, is… and what I would, what I would say is when you’re looking for a job, take your time, figure out the market. What ,what do people want? Well, who are the biggest players? If you’re in technology? You know, where are the what, what are the trends? Like, maybe even go, go… You know, if you’re, if you’re looking for a sales job, go request a demo from the website, see what the sales cycle is, like, on the other side. Yeah, talk to talk to people on the SDR team, talk to competitors just really understand, really understand where the technology is at because technology wanes. Technology comes and goes, right? Unless you’re working for Google, Salesforce, Amazon. If you’re working for a startup, there’s probablt 10 other startups. And so what you’re selling, like if you’re not passionate about it, or it’s not a very good product, you’re gonna be, you’re gonna have a long road ahead. And then yeah, really think about the people that are interviewing. I interviewed with a company that with… I had an interview, and I was asking about work-life balance, and somebody on the other side of the phone said that they typically work on Saturdays and Sundays. And for me, that was an absolute no go like that was a huge red flag for me and then I’m, I’m not working for someone where I’m going to be where it is cool or expected, or you’re gonna get a leg up if you work on the weekends. It’s not happening.

Jordan  34:51

I like… I just think this is even a good way to wrap up. I really like what you had to say there about you know, where are your values at because it’s true. I mean, I used to, I used to ask that question about work-life balance, and I talked to somebody older and wiser than me,;you mentioned Mark Kosoglow before; I was talking to him about that. And he talked about living a harmonious life. Like, you’re never going to be at a place where like, everything’s always 25% 25% 25%. Like, there’s certain seasons of life, where in order for you to be like a whole human, that like, brings value to your life, to family and society and whatever, like, you need to be at home and be the dad, like, and that’s got to be the focus. There’s other seasons of life where like, you might need to hustle a little more, because like, that’s what’s actually in order for you to be a good dad or a good husband or to get where you’re trying to get to, you might need to hustle at work a little bit more than you’re used to. And so you just have to ask yourself, like, what season of life am I in? Like, what’s actually needed of me in this season? And the answer isn’t always, “oh, let’s work more”. The answer isn’t always “You know, let me go on that bike ride that I wanted to go on”. Right? Like, it’s, it’s you got to find that harmony of like, the balance of where you’re at, and what, like what’s really needed around you, like, you know, for your own sake, for your family’s sake. So I thought that was good advice. And I was hearing elements of that, in what you were saying right there. So any any final words you’d want to give here before we say goodbye? All right, Mr. Williams, always appreciate chatting with you. Thanks for coming on today. And for the listeners, I hope you enjoyed. We’ll see you next time. See you later.

36:42

Hot dog. That was a great episode. Thanks for listening. If you want to learn more about Greaser Consulting or any information you heard on today’s episode, visit us online at www.greaserconsulting.com. Be sure to click the Follow button and the bell icon to be notified on the latest here at RevOps Therapy. Thanks and see you real soon.