“Breakthrough Requires Hustle” with Debra Paul

Jordan  00:00

Hi everyone, this is Jordan, the owner and CEO of Greaser Consulting. On today’s episode, we have Debra Paul from Robbins Research, essentially Tony Robbins, here to talk with us. She’s in charge of sales operations. And what we’re specifically talking about on this call, is do you know a company on the planet that is bigger into live events has more of a reputation in just their process of trench transitioning over to online based events, really, by necessity, but also trying to keep that same quality. This is a really interesting conversation to me. Not so much just because of here’s the three steps to make the transition over to this thing. We don’t actually really talk about that. But just to get inside the mind of the Robbins crew, because this is the company of push, breakthrough, breakthrough, breakthrough. And then they came up against a situation where like, the whole world shut down, you’re not breaking through, how do you pivot? So just some of the conversations and the things that went on internally inside of that Robbins organization, which is a lot of fun to learn about, hear about, and just hear how Debra sort of handled it throughout. So with that in mind, I’m going to transition over to the podcast. Enjoy!

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Jordan  01:34

Hi, everyone, this is Jordan, and I’ve got with me, Debra, today. Debra, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself?

Debra  01:40

Hi, I’m Debra Paul. And I’m the head of operations at Tony Robbins company called Robins Research International.

Jordan  01:48

Glad to have you on and we were reminiscing on this a little bit right before we hit the record button. And the funny thing about how we got to know each other is it was like, I think, what, two three months before the COVID lockdowns and we got into a conversation together, you’re like, yeah, we’ve been heavily field sales, I think we need to go digital. And so you started getting into this conversation on like, how can we digitize our workforce? And so we got we, like, went through this project together. Sort of signed it off, it went like pretty well, from my perspective, your team started doing some like inside sales types of things. And then literally, like three weeks later, everything was shut down. Like, like, talk about a 180 pivot for the Tony Robbins crew. Right?

Debra  02:38

It was intense. I mean, yeah, we started conversations, I think initially, just with demos, and, you know, getting getting the sales leaders acclimated to what a world, you know, with a digital transformation could look like in the fall of 2019. And it was like, alright, you know, what our busiest time of the year is the end of the year, we have most of our events, we have one of our most beloved events, Date with Destiny, at the end of the year. And we’re just like most companies, and the viewers just really busy and it is for us too. And then we’re like, Okay, well, after in January, that’s going to be a great time to launch we had a whole launch plan in your brain that it was March of 2020, where and I thought I had everything dialed in. I was a new kid on the block, I was making things happen, you know, I was changing lives and everything was going swimmingly.

Jordan  03:32

Yeah. And then, and then it wasn’t all of a sudden. And that’s, I mean, that’s really the premise of our, like our conversation today is, and I, I think, over the last two years, there’s been so much out there about how to move to remote events. And now we’re even talking about going back to in person and all these things. And so in some ways, this topic has been hit. But at the same time, like when I was thinking about chatting with you today, I was thinking man, like Tony Robbins is perhaps the most famous event company on the planet. And there’s nothing like a Robbins event. I mean, you go there, it’s, I mean, like, people’s lives are changing, crazy things are occurring. People walk out of these things having like, I think many people would say, like a spiritual experience. And so you know, here’s Debra Paul thinking let’s get people running on Outreach and doing some SEP things. And then, like two months later, all of a sudden, like, you can’t do in person events. Like I have to know inside, you know, the secret places of Tony Robbins. Right. Like, like, what’s the conversation?

Debra  04:45

Wow. Well, I mean, and and that’s true, what you’re saying about the impact, right? Because at the end of the day, yes, it’s it’s a famous events company because Tony Robbins has made an imprint because of the impact study has on people’s lives. It’s the transformation. It’s the breakthrough. And it’s about reaching more and more people all over the world, as many peoples we can impact as possible. You know, so like our version of, you know, like most companies, like global domination is their, is their eventual outcome. Right. And I guess ours is similar except with, you know, the Neverland edge, which is really just impact as many lives as possible. And so, you know, honestly, it was a blessing in disguise that we had that seed planted that Outreach seed and, you know, creating a way to communicate with people that was more aligned with how they wanted to be communicated to so we’re already kind of thinking in our minds about how do we need to adjust our Outreach methods so that we’ve talked to people who are in living in the world that they’re living in now, so that we can really speak to where they’re at. And we could really try to get more people to events. And that’s what most companies are using Outreach for. And for us, I just like to put it in that context. Because exactly what you’re saying, when that moment hit where: Oh, no, you know, we’re not doing in person events anymore. We still had the same outcome. And it was just okay, now, how do we leverage what we have to get there? So the conversations were really focused to your point on how do we need to change this content? What are people worried about right now? What speaks to them today? What are their biggest fears? What are their what are, you know, when people didn’t, didn’t lose their dreams overnight, right? They didn’t lose their goals for themselves and their families and their children and their communities. They just had different priorities, I think, at that moment in time. And so it was an opportunity for us to really help people and speak to them and create connections and community, where people were being isolated from all of that.

Jordan  07:02

I think you’re talking about, there’s like two sides to this whole, like, we had to shut down and go digital, right. And one of them is like the actual people in your company doing their work, right. And that’s how sort of the outreach side facilitates your marketing automation, you know, some of the different tools and technologies out there that can allow you to do work, you know, from Zoom, or, you know, whatever else. But then there’s the other side of like, you specifically have a product that for a very long time, you know, up until very recently, it was like an in person product, right? So not only does your whole team suddenly have to learn to work remotely, and through all this different process and mechanisms. But the very way that you’re actually pitching and positioning your product is very different in the way you’re following through. I mean, I remember, I’ve been through, oh, like two or three company, all hands or like sales kickoffs, or whatever, that had a Robbins Coach come. And you know, we’re breaking through wooden boards, and people are screaming and yelling. So like, is there a moment and Tony Robbins, when you’re like, where anybody for a moment? And maybe you can’t answer this? I don’t know. But maybe for a moment, or like, How in the world do we do that event? Like, on Zoom? Like, how does like how do we capture that?

Debra  08:26

Yeah, I mean, Unleash the Power Within, on the very first night, after a full day of content, you’re walking on fire, literally walking on fire. So that doesn’t translate that well to the digital experience, unless you have you know, very well advanced VR, which people are working on to the point where you can get those types of sensations of you know, but uh, no, outside of that we had to figure it out, we did end up going with board breaking because that was a tool that we had used in the past and even, I mean, imagine the conversations we had, you know, how we’re going to let people do this at home with no supervision? We don’t want anybody to get injured. We don’t want anybody to, you know, we didn’t want anything to happen even breaking the board. If if the proper technique isn’t taught, you know, certainly things can happen. You know, hopefully parents are responsible for their children, you know, at the time, but it’s like, once you mail that out to clients, you know, you don’t have control, you have less control.

Jordan  09:35

You you can’t really be telling people hey, go make a campfire out in your yard, like minute 37 of the webinar, like go out and walk on it and then just come back in right like, that’s just that’s probably not gonna happen.

Debra  09:49

It’s not gonna happen. No, we when we do it, we have to get permits for that kind of thing with fire department, medical staff on site everything so no, so it was no it was about that and to that point, it’s not just the physical nature of, you know, at an immersive event, you’re jumping up and down, you’re dancing, you’re giving high fives. You know, you’re doing wacky things with your physiology to kind of get you out of yourself and, you know, change your physiology. You know, you change your whole state of mind. Right? So, it but it’s not just about the physicality, right? It’s also about the energy. It’s about the connection of just being around other people there. And it’s about, I mean, we know that we go to just go to any concert for just as an example, not that it’s a concert. But you feel that energy of the crowd, the cheering, the lights, the music like that, you immerse yourself in that experience, you feel really connected to everyone who’s there, enjoying that experience with you? And and that was one of our major considerations. And something very important to Tony in the team is, how do we make sure we deliver something like that, like, we know what it’s like to sit in front of a computer for eight hours a day? We’re asking people to do that for 12 hours, 14 hours? How are we going to make that just as engaging or more so in a Zoom, virtual environment than if they’re in the stadium with everybody else? That’s definitely a challenge.

Jordan  11:09

I mean, ultimately, we and again, we talked about this before we hit record, what’s interesting for your organization is, there were several things sort of like simmering under the surface, like right before the lock downs that you were like, like, we should do this, but like, I don’t know, it’s not time or it’s not the right place. But like, you literally got put into a position where, like, adapt or die, right. And it’s like, that’s an amazing thing to even say, considering the just how prolific the Robbins brand really is. But it’s based on something you have to be in person for right. And so what this ended up doing, correct me if I’m wrong is like some of these things your team was already toying with, like, you just had to quickly quickly innovate and just say: “listen, we got to do this.” Like, on the one hand, you mentioned being benevolent, we want to change people and dreams, but there’s also a survival side of this right of like, what, as an organization, like, if we want to fulfill our mission, we also need to survive. Right? So like, you know, talk through a little bit of how some of that, like just rapidly accelerated or some of the change that went on there.

Debra  12:23

Yeah, I mean, it’s like our hardwork set was a California clients. I mean, that was the event where it was canceled one or two days before, and only because the time Governor Newsom said that’s it, no, you can’t do it, shutting down the arena. And so we already had our ground crew, they’re setting up. And I was actually about to get on a flight the next morning, and it was called. So imagine how our clients felt, you know, some of them are flying in from other countries overseas, but all over the world. And we had to, I think some of them are probably already in flights, some of them probably, were already there. In California, and so we, you know, we didn’t know then what we know now was that it was gonna be such a length of time that things were shut down, right. And Hindsight is 2020. But at the time, we just thought, Okay, well, we’ll just leave California, you know, will it, can, what venue can we get in another state that’s open? And, you know, probably this thing will blow over or, you know, get better and everything will be fine. So flatten the curve in about six weeks. Oh, yeah. Flatten the curve. I remember that. I don’t really talk about that anymore. But yeah, remember, that was overreach. And then, so we went from, I mean, I remember we tried Dallas, Chicago, Florida, and New York, even so I think 1234 At least four or five different locations, we had secured a space for set a date for communicating to our cost to our clients that we’re doing it, people change their travel plans. I mean, because our clients still wanted to meet in person. I mean, they still wanted to have this experience, are really looking forward to it. And again, we don’t know, then what we knew now. So when it became just extremely obvious a couple of months later, I mean, mind you, we’re sitting here chasing our tail. Imagine internally the turmoil of having to pivot not just from live to virtual, I think that almost would have been easier. But we went from live to live to live to live to live to virtual, and that made it so much more difficult because we were just, we were like going 100 miles an hour towards each goal. Because Tony is like, No, I’m not going to let this obstacle stop me. You know, I can’t let this stop me. I won’t let this loss I won’t let this stop me know, we’ll find a way wherever it’s legal and safe to do this. We’re gonna do this. And then it’s just it just wasn’t, it wasn’t something we could do to our clients anymore. wasn’t something we were willing to do, to your point, to our internal team anymore

Jordan  14:52

What was the moment like what was the moment like, what was the thing that occurred that everybody’s just like? Okay, we got to. We got to just like start from zero here.

Debra  15:02

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s just like you can only take so much now of, I mean, it was like 24. You know, we, of course, we slept and took care of ourselves. But barely I mean, because we were just to put on one of these other companies and people who put on live events. I mean, I mean, even ask a wedding planner, what if you had to take that everything you’ve done for that 10 exit, and then change it every 17 days, to totally different state with all different vendors and, you know, different

Jordan  15:32

This sounds fantastic. Where do I sign up?

Debra  15:36

Right? So those individuals in your audience who are familiar, that will feel like that’s a very special place of pain in their, in the depths of their soul. So I think it was just, it was just time, it was enough, like, enough was enough. And Tony has some really good friends in the industry who’ve been doing virtual events. It’s something that again, to your point and original question, it’s something that the company had been thinking about doing, you know, we could reach more people who thought about it in the past, like, the cost is far less, you remove some barriers for the clients who can’t travel, can’t spend that much time away from home due to children or finances or work obligations, or what have you. We’ve discovered, you know, now mean, virtuals, just it’s so much more accessible and affordable for people. So they were able to convince him, he was also very skeptical. When in true Tony fashion, he innovated in a way that he felt like he could actually get the outcome for people because why it had been resisted for so long was wanting to make sure that people had that same experience, you know, that we were talking about earlier, where they had they feel the energy there, they’re engaged, that they are really immersed, that they’re tuned in that they’re doing the work, right, that they’re doing the breakouts are doing the exercises, they’re talking to their peers next to them or in a breakout room, right, in Zoom. That they’re really working together, that they’re diving deep, that they have access to the trainer that they’re, you know, really super hyper engaged, and that they can feel Tony’s presence there. And that, that focal point, and that leadership is just so prevalent to guide them through their transformation and their breakthroughs. And so, I mean, he probably didn’t sleep very much working through how the content could be reshaped how the, you know, what can he get out of his tool bag that can really just make the most impact. And we went over it and over and over and over it. And we eventually had, you know, a free challenge for people where Tony promised he was going to go live for, you know, an hour a day for five days, he went live for free to anybody who signed up for three, four hours at certain points in time for seven days, right, just to give people I mean, people were hurting, you know, everybody across the world was hurting so, so poorly at that point. You know, it was such a pronounced time, we can remember, I mean, we still had no idea we’re going to come out on the other side, we still had no idea we before it was their lives, their homes, their jobs. And so he just wanted to help people. And out of that came a little bit more of a confidence booster that like, Okay, you really can reach people and in the communities were blowing up the engagement, not just him, what he noticed was not just with him, right and with the event, but it was with each other and building that community and saying, oh, yeah, that happened to me too. And just the bringing of people bringing people together was incredible, and then offer them at the end of that event. Hey, you know what, I’ve never done a virtual UPW before Unleash the Power Within, but I’m going to do it. And if you’d like, you know, we’re gonna put tickets up for that. And, yeah, we had our largest UPW in the history of the company, because I think it was virtual. And because it was just at a time when serving people had just an enormous impact.

Jordan  19:10

Is there like, one or two things that you can speak to related to during these events virtually, that like, the Robins crew committed to this concept, and that’s what made the difference of engagement because there’s so like, there’s just so much online, whatever today, and most of it like you sign on, you sort of fall half asleep, and you just kind of get through it. Right. But is there is there anything that’s just like at the core of how this was put together? That if somebody’s gonna walk away from this today, they’re like, oh, yeah, I gotta consider this if I’m doing something online.

Debra  19:46

Yeah, I mean, I think you’ve, you have to obsess over every detail, like obsess over it and set a new standard. Just nothing is good enough. I mean, I remember this sort of a similar concept, but I was like taking these art classes and I was we were doing portraits with like charcoal and stuff. And I was doing my partner, you know, and he was doing me and then the teacher came around and she said, Okay, that’s actually that’s really good. Now I want you to take your hand and just erase it. And I was like, what? I thought you said it was good? It was really fun of it, and you want to do it again, or been doing it for like, three, four hours. And she was like, just do it again. And it’s it’s very similar concepts, like when you think it’s good enough. It’s not, it can be better. And so keep going. Keep questioning, asking questions, dive into the details. But what about this? What about that? I mean, it’s sort of the key to innovation, right? It’s like the Yes, and, and just adding on ideas, creating an environment in your team where that’s not only accepted, but it’s encouraged. What else can we do? What else can we do? Okay, and what else can we do?

Jordan  20:57

So I’ve got two questions for you. And I’m not sure. I might get in trouble for asking you this. But I’m gonna I’m gonna ask them to you know, exactly. What was there? Was there ever a point? You know, be honest with me here? Was there ever a point when you were like, in the middle of all this shift? And you were thinking this isn’t possible?

Debra  21:19

Yeah. Yes. Yes. And

Jordan  21:26

There you go, you’re applying your own logic here. I like it. You know, like, Tony, the Tony Robbins sort of vein is, is this whole like, like you said, like, we’re going to break through, we’re going to break through, we’re going to break through. And sometimes, you know, are you are you allowed to doubt and like, that’s what I’m saying, I’m not sure if I can ask this or not. But like, that’s part of breakthrough in some ways of like, you hit those places of this is impossible, but you keep going. That’s why I was curious for you, like internally at an org. This is, this is kind of like a just an interesting microcosm, like for Tony Robbins’ org right the Robbins Research, to have to go through such this transformation. And like, push through all this, but like, for your own team, and you personally, was there ever just that point of like, this isn’t gonna work? And like, how did you manage that?

Debra  22:23

Oh, yeah, I would say only by just having making really good friends with my team. Everybody on the team, we just got so close. And I think there were times when each of us I don’t think there’s any exceptions. We’re just like, I don’t I don’t think we can. I don’t think I can do it anymore. I’m, like, broken in a puddle. Like, the pressure is so intense. I’m so overwhelmed. I don’t know how we’re gonna deliver this. We’ve never done it before. What if it doesn’t work? I mean, I think, of course, that’s okay. What’s great is like, no, it’s like any two people in relationship like, somebody can always be down or have a bad day. It just can’t be both.

Jordan  23:01

When it’s both people it sucks.

Debra  23:05

Yeah, so like, it can, but then it would really suck. So no, I mean, we had we had less people. So we became even tighter. We have to just kind of take things on. I think ignorance is bliss. I mean, some of us did, like jobs and things that we’ve never done before. And we had no idea like, if what we were doing was great, or we didn’t care, we just had to get the outcome at the end of the day. And you know, we relied on each other like, hey, take a look at this. What do you think we picked the pick each other up when, you know, we just felt like, Oh, I just I don’t really know how I don’t really know how in order to be able to do this, you know, and we just have such a great team of camaraderie, and friendship and support. And the good thing is, we always fall back on some of the content that Tony teaches. Other people that we admire and industry of, you know, what would they say? What would they do? Like, what what is this for? You know, and I think it’s like getting leverage on yourself. At the end of the day, it’s like, well, what’s the real risk here? Like, if we don’t try it all, then you know, you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take right.

Jordan  24:16

Was that is that Wayne Gretzky? Is that? Is that who the famous quote is?

Debra  24:21

Well I’m a Chicago girl, so it’s gonna either be Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan.

Jordan  24:28

I’ve seen it attributed to both. So I was thinking about this, though. So let’s talk a little bit about hustle culture. There’s been a huge blowback, if you’ve been reading online about any of this and just kind of catching some of the social trends there about how like, you know, you shouldn’t live at your job or you shouldn’t just hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle and, and like usually those are the people that are praised, but is that actually healthy, and there’s this whole sort of side of things, but then there’s another side of life, like thinking about the scenario that you just went through is like, in order to survive, you must hustle. Like, there is no other option. And so just thinking through this sort of hustle culture push back, but also some of the things that you went through. Do you got any, like good wisdom on when like, hustling is healthy? Versus when like, no, now it’s time to slow down. You know, especially looking for insights, you know, you’re coming from that Tony Robbins vein, which again, is like, we’re going to breakthrough breakthrough breakthrough. And often, like, breakthrough requires hustle. So is there any balance or any thoughts you can add to that?

Debra  25:44

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s you’ve kind of summarized it. Well, your last word there. Like, is there any balance? Yes, there is, if you create balance or boundaries, and I think it’s, it’s, we talk about work life balance. And then, you know, there’s a lot of different ways to say that, right. So does that mean that you’re working from eight to five, Monday through Friday? And absolutely no five o’clock meeting is permitted. And your boss can’t leave you in audio on Saturday? Because they were inspired. And they say, you know, think about and let me know what you think Monday? Like, is that not okay. I mean, I think that there’s maybe it’s not, right, for some people. And I think everyone has to decide that. And I think it has to have some context, right? Our business is cyclical with events. And so we’re not hustling, hustling so hard, like I just described, I mean, like that, probably, hopefully, never again, but

Jordan  26:45

I get you there.

Debra  26:46

Yeah, no, thank you. But maybe, and I guess if something something crazy happened, I mean, we now know, we can do it, right, when we have the right people for the job. But I think that in general, I mean, we, because of our business, we’re always hustling before an event. You know, we have immersive events that are 12-14 hours. And you know, maybe if you’re in a certain position, at the end of that event, you’re processing orders till three o’clock in the morning, so we have the best, you know, sales results. So we know we’re gonna do for, you know, closed down, or, you know, you’re capturing survey results. So we get that get back to people right away to acknowledge, you know, that we’ve incorporated their feedback. I mean, there’s certain roles in certain positions at certain times in our company that are going to require hustle. And I think that that’s going to be true, probably for most roles in most companies. I mean, I even thought about this the other day, someone who was talking to me about, you know, they just want a very clear work life balance without any exceptions. And I said to somebody I was talking to, I said, Oh, well, then maybe you should be an accountant. Maybe they should be an accountant, you know. And then I thought about it more or less that, oh, you know what, now I have to correct myself because they have month end, I’m close, they have

Jordan  28:00

My wifes an accountant. Month end, quarter end, year end, taxes!

Debra  28:04

Tax season, I mean, cuz so, you know, I don’t know, maybe I’m just not imaginative enough, or I don’t have experiences enough job roles. But I think probably there’s some hustle required, at some point in time for any role that you do in any industry. And, you know, especially for small business owner, ask them, you know, how hard they hustle, when’s enough, enough? I think every person needs to decide that for themselves. I think the what you’re talking about too, though, that when people are making constant and clear sacrifices of any kind of a life that they have unnecessarily when they work for a company. And they’re in a leadership role, specifically, or maybe even not, but they have a very pivotal role. It’s very visible. And they’re constantly rewarded for that sacrifice. Like you had said, like a pat on the back for, you know, oh, like this person sacrifices everything for this company, that we put them up on a pedestal. I think that’s a culture we want to avoid. Absolutely. Because at the same time, you can tell a person like that, oh, well, you should have said no, you should have created more boundaries, you know, and you know, what they tell you on the way out the door is like, yeah, I should have, you know, but I didn’t and I was rewarded for that. And so I think that is absolutely the culture we want to avoid, because we can’t underestimate the impact that culture has on us as humans, you know, and at the end of the day, if you asked me if I have a job because like, do I live to work or work to live I mean, I think what most people’s instinct is and you know, if you love your work, sometimes you will hustle and maybe you’ll you know, spend that Saturday getting things done because you’re excited about that project. So is that wrong? I don’t think so. You know, that’s just that’s in the eye of the beholder.

Jordan  29:51

Makes me think about I used to tell people all the time think if you think about a sales reps comp plan, like what are they compensated on. That’s the behavior, you’re rewarding. So that’s how they’re going to behave. So like, why this salesperson doesn’t like to come to any meetings ever? Well, yeah, you don’t compensate them for it. Right? Like,

Debra  30:11

They don’t get called out, right? Because they’re the top salesperson. So they pretty much don’t have to show up.

Jordan  30:15

Yeah, they don’t update the CRM, well, they don’t get compensated for that they get compensated for closed deals, right? Like, like, if you want an action, bake it into the comp plan, right? I mean, but like that might take from something else. And so anyway, I think that’s a fair comment of like, I think I might be guilty of that of saying, Well, hey, if you have a boundary, just tell me. Okay, like, fair, but is that actually fair? Because like, is everyone going to come to you and say, “Here’s my boundary”? Probably not. Right.

Debra  30:46

Right. I think it’s about creating a safe space, you know, and incentives are more than just about money. Now, some incentives, it’s like, Okay, what if you’re not in sales? And how do you create that culture of behavior? And it is, it’s like a read about this in economics, right. There’s like social incentives, moral incentives. And those definitely take part in the culture and the behavior that you’re demonstrating. And it goes, it’s usually top down on leadership team, What’s everyone doing? What are they? How are they perceived? When there’s careful nuances and a culture or the community we have to sort through and I think it’s just about creating that safe space. You know, sometimes, you know, I told my team, I can have a choice, I say, Hey, this is what we need to get done, like, who wants to do and who wants to take on this project? And at the end of the day, you get like a free comp day? Or, you know, because to some people and some of the money that I mean, of course, I’m sure they’d like some money too. But if they’re their choice, they might prefer to just spend the day with their family and get paid for that. You know?

Jordan  31:49

We did a we did a really stupid spiff once where like, we were trying to motivate salespeople with money, which you know, money can be part of it. We couldn’t get anyone moving. So we created a stupid spin wheel, where like if you did certain activities, you’d get you could in the prizes were like two cents, houseplant. This person will do an interpretive dance. Like it was all like just ridiculous things. And I mean, we had tried to spiff people with like, 1000s of dollars no change of behavior. We hand out free spins at the end of the at the end of the week, and people were losing their minds whenever they would win two cents, and everyone’s going BLAHH The place is pandemonium and all this stuff. Like I got two pennies, like wife’s gonna be happy tonight. We’re like, this is insane. Like we literally offered you $2,000 And now you want two spins so you could win maybe 50 bucks or two pennies or a houseplant. Okay, whatever. But you’re so you’re so right. Like, people are incentivized just so differently.

Debra  32:50

Yeah. And they take cues from each other. I just yeah, it’s, it’s funny. I love that. I love a spin of the wheel. We do that in one of our events. I I brought it up recently, we’re talking about like culture and internal or internal clients and how to inject some more fun into the culture and I just like my hand shot up and I was like, wheel wheel wheel!

Jordan  33:12

So you’re the person who wants the two cents? I got it. Yeah,

Debra  33:16

I want like a $2 bill. And I want like your stuff. Frog Beanie Baby. And I want yeah, the sillier than better.

Jordan  33:23

Yeah, exactly. Well, Debra, I know we’re coming right up on time. So I want to say thanks for coming and joining us today and just walking through some of the stuff that went on. Again, appreciated having you here. And for anybody listening. Yeah. For anybody listening. We hope to have you tune in next time.

Debra  33:44

Sounds great. Always great. Speaking with you, Jordan.

Jordan  33:47

Yeah. See you later. Debra. Stay out of trouble.

All right. Bye. Bye.

Hot dog. That was a great episode. Thanks for listening. If you want to learn more about rooster consulting or any information you heard on today’s episode, visit us online at www dot research consulting.com. Be sure to click the Follow button and the bell icon to be notified on the latest here at robots therapy. Thanks and see you real soon.